Talk:Bahá'í Faith

Article Checklist for "Bahá'í Faith"

Workgroup category or categories	Religion Workgroup [Editors asked to check categories]
Article status	Developed article: complete or nearly so
Underlinked article?	Yes
Basic cleanup done?	Yes
Checklist last edited by	'Dragon' Dave McKee 13:53, 9 March 2007 (CST)

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I've started working on the Baha'i page. Not sure how far to go with it, since Wikipedia has about 100 Baha'i-related pages, and most of them are an ungodly mess.

Just a heads-up to any "editors" out there who may be paying attention... --Bei Dawei

Article title

The term Bahá'í Faith seems to be more common than Baha'i religion. Unless there is some distinction to be drawn between the two terms, this seems to imply that we should move to Bahá'í Faith.—Nat Krause 14:53, 7 February 2007 (CST)

"Faith" is just a synonym for "religion" that has become common in recent times because of a certain squeamishness about the latter term. I'd stick with "relgion" myself.

With regard to the capitalisation, though: I don't know if we're dispensing with the Wikipedia naming conventions, but according to those it should be Baha'i religion, as "religion" is a common noun. --Peter J. King 10:46, 12 February 2007 (CST)

Well, since "faith" and "religion" mean the same thing, and since "Bahá'í Faith" is more common, I would suggest that we should use "faith".—Nat Krause 11:31, 12 February 2007 (CST)

It's more common in journalism and on Web sites; "religion" is still much more common elsewhere so far as I can tell (and surely we shouldn't let journalists determine how we use language?). --Peter J. King 11:56, 12 February 2007 (CST)

"Bahá'í Faith" seems to be the form used by the Bahá'í church itself, and in addition it used more commonly on the web and in journalism. Which are the "elsewhere" where "Baha'i religion" is more common, and why should that have more weight than the group's own usage plus journalism and the web?—Nat Krause 12:24, 12 February 2007 (CST)

1. They seem to be using the term to make a sort of point (The Bahá’í Faith and Other Religions).
2. All the books and articles I have (except for the Penguin Dictionary of Religions for some reason). Wikipedia tends to go for whatever usage is most common rather than which is more common in academic or respectable circle; I'd thought that Citizendium was going for more emphasis on expertise, bit I'm new and have probably misunderstood.
3. In searching, I found that Bahá'ísm was very popular (and fits better with Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, etc.); would that be a compromise? --Peter J. King 12:44, 12 February 2007 (CST)

I don't know what Citizendium's naming policies will end up being, but it's reasonable to suppose that they will give greater weight to academic sources than Wikipedia does. That being the case, since you say respectable circles tend to use "Baha'i religion" (and I'll certainly take your word for that), then it would be fine to use that name here. However, it seems to me that we should also take into account the naming preferences of the subject itself. With regard to facts, the subject doesn't always make a reliable source, and so we favour experts instead; but for the name, I think we should take subject's views into account. Exactly how these should balance is a bit unclear.

I don't think it really matters that the name "Bahá'í Faith" tries to make a point; it seems to me that religions typically give themselves names which imply assertions that others might find dubious. Also, I don't using Bahá'ísm is adviseable, since it is neither the more common name in academic circles (if I understand you correctly) nor is it the name used by Bahá'í followers themselves.—Nat Krause 12:01, 13 February 2007 (CST)

My point was rather that "Bahá'í faith" appears almost nowhere;* "Bahá'í religion", "Bahá'ísm" (or simply "Bahaism"), and "Bahá'í" are all used pretty frequently. "Bahá'í religion" and "Bahá'í" are the most frequent (often both being used in the same articles or books). Again, as other religions don't include terms like "faith" or "religion", wouldn't it be more consistent not to use one here either?

• I found another usage though [I can't think how I missed it before — it's on my shelf right next to me]: Peter Smith's A Short History of the Bahá'í Faith — but he also uses "Bahá'í" on its own, and his longer, more scholarly work is The Babi and Bahá'í Religions. He's also published The Bahá'í Religion. --Peter J. King 17:21, 13 February 2007 (CST)

Haifa promotes "Baha'i Faith" as the religion's official name. That's in English, of course, but they do the same thing in other languages (e.g. "Baha'a Kredo" in Esperanto). I think somebody decided that "Faith" sounds better than "-ism." Academic writers sometimes use "Faith" (especially if they are themselves Baha'is), and sometimes "religion." Denis MacEoin uses "Bahaism."

If we're going to follow their "house style" with "Faith," then what about those faux-academic accent marks? (So help me, there are Baha'is who go around Wikipedia adding accent marks to names in Baha'i articles.) How much say should the leadership of a religion (or rather, the biggest grouping within a religion) have over such things?

I prefer "Baha'i religion" because it sounds neutral and academic. "Baha'i Faith" has the ring of piety--by design, of course. "Bahaism" should be avoided because Baha'is often find the term offensive. Not for any good reason that they can articulate (they themselves use "Babism") but hey. Bei Dawei

Peter King has convinced me that Baha'i religion is a quite acceptable title. As for whether to include the accent marks, I suppose that has to do with Citizendium's general policies on diacritics in titles. If we're using diacritics in general, then I suppose we might as well use them in Bahá'í.—Nat Krause 00:24, 19 February 2007 (CST)

Whether diacritics are used in a title depends on the usual or conventional spelling. The form of a title really depends ultimately on how the thing described by the title is usually referred to by the various concerned parties--in this case, no doubt Bahai's themselves. If, therefore, they use "Baha'i Faith" (I have no idea what the facts are!), that is a good reason to use that as a title for the article, whether it "has the ring of piety" or not. It is not the role of a neutral source of information to strip titles of rings of faith; to do so might seem to favor one view of the subject just as much as to leave them in; so the decision has to reflect a more generally-applicable rule, such as the rule of common usage. In any event, "Baha'i Religion" must be replaced by "Baha'i religion" if we're going to go with that phrase. --Larry Sanger 17:03, 9 March 2007 (CST)

If there is a problem, it should be moved, but I don't seem able to do that. Why is that? Have moves been disabled? Rob Levin 00:32, 19 February 2007 (CST)

Yep, they have, for all except constables, on account of vandalism. Ask a constable ([email protected]) and somebody will do it in a jiffy. --Larry Sanger 09:04, 19 February 2007 (CST)

May I point out that the "diacritics" are in fact largely meaningless from the point of view of transliteration. It's a "House style," nothing more (and in any case would only apply to the Haifa Baha'i leadership's preferences). For reference I suppose we could consider the ideosyncratic use of umlauts in "Motley Crue," "Spinal Tap" and "Bronte".)

Another problem is, where do we stop? The Baha'is prefer "Akka" (with a slash) to "Akko" or "Acre"; "Irak" (with a slash) to "Iraq"; "Siyyid" to "Said"; "Shaykh" to "Sheikh"; and many other weirdnesses. Many of their preferred forms reflect Persianized pronounciations of Arabic. Bei Dawei

Generally speaking (perhaps with occasional exceptions), we should use one spelling for a given thing throughout Citizendium. Thus, even if we do decide to use the spelling "Bahá'í", we will presumably still use spellings like "Iraq", "Edward Said", etc. No particuilar reason to take Bahá'í preferences into account there.—Nat Krause 23:51, 22 February 2007 (CST)